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From PRX. And social impact. Each episode features interviews with creative visionaries such as Quinta Brunson, Damon Lindelof, Pamela Adlon, and many more. Join comedian and host Gabe Gonzalez to explore how the most compelling shows and the creative powers behind them are upending the status quo. This podcast also features commentary from experts such as NPR TV critic Eric Deggans and Pillars Fund Managing Director Ariyej Makati to unpack the real-life impact of these stories. Listen to We Disrupt This Broadcast now, available where you get your podcasts. Here's an episode of the show. We hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to We Disrupt This Broadcast, the brand new and soon-to-be-hit podcast from the folks at the Peabody Awards and Good Laugh, powered by the Center for Media and Social Impact. I'm Gabe Gonzalez, a comedian, writer, your host, and most importantly, a product of 90s sitcoms. Before I knew about therapy, I let Clarissa explain it all. But between then and now, a lot has changed in the TV landscape. We Disrupt This Broadcast spotlights the entertainment that drives those changes. Stories that break the mold, disrupt stereotypes, and shake up tired industry trends. Stories that challenge our culture and reflect our actual lived experiences. And we'll do all of that by diving in deep with the people at the very center of it all, the disruptive visionaries behind the TV you and I love, television creatives and showrunners. And occasionally chatting with experts about how these shows are actually impacting the real world. Today's disruptor is the creator and star of Abbott Elementary, Quinta Brunson.

Revolutionaries are actually huge optimists. They believe that the world can be a better place. And they're radical about that belief. They believe it's so hard that they make change happen. You need those kinds of people or else our world would just fall apart.

Let's be real for a second. Abbott Elementary's cast and writers have breathed new life into the mockumentary format. They've created moving storylines, characters that we've fallen in love with, and comedy that actually feels fresh. Yes, on a network sitcom. On top of all of that, Abbott addresses issues that are all too familiar to Americans. Underfunded public schools, the realities of being a single parent, and generational differences in the workplace. So in today's episode, our brilliant and hilarious correspondent, Joelle Nicole Johnson, will talk to the singular talent that is Quinta Brunson about the disruptive power of optimism in her art, and the legacy of Black sitcoms that have influenced her work. Later on, we'll be joined by TV critic Eric Deggans to discuss the impact that Abbott has had on the industry and audiences. All that after the break. Thank you. Welcome back to We Disrupt This Broadcast, where we talk to some of the most notable disruptors in entertainment who are reshaping culture with stories we love. I'm Gabe Gonzalez, and today we're joined by our incredible correspondent, Joelle Nicole Johnson. Joelle is a comedian and actress you may know from Survival of the Thickest and her stand-up special Lovejoy. She spoke with the Peabody Award-winning creator, writer, and star of Abbott Elementary, Quinta Brunson, in a fascinating conversation about the golden age of Black sitcoms, optimism, and Quinta University. Here's part of their conversation.

It's the QB. I can't believe I get to talk to you right now. Emmy Award-winning Super Bowl commercial having show running fifth of Brunson, but first of her name. How are you doing today, my darling? I'm doing well. I'm happy I'm talking to you.

This is a real treat.

So let's get right into it. Let's talk about your character, Janine, on my favorite show, Abbott Elementary. She's a teacher at a Philly public school, and let's just say even when she's going through it, which she be going through it, she is showing up 100% for her students.

Look, I know this school is rough, but I became a teacher to make sure students come out alive. And after learning a lot in my first year, finally feeling happy things. Jamal, what are you doing? I had to go, and the toilets don't work. And the rug was plan B.

Janine is an eternal optimist. I can't personally relate to that.

But-

But how does Quinta, the person, relate to that character trait? How many elements of Janine are in you?

I can't necessarily relate either. But I love playing Janine. Because to me, playing Janine really feels like finding a character. She does not come naturally to me. I feel like I'm acting. So, I mean, it's not that I'm not optimistic. I don't think I'm necessarily pessimistic, but I'm pretty neutral.

Okay, yeah. So you're a true Black person in America. How do you think that dose of optimism impacts society?

Janine was inspired by a friend of mine, Ashley, who was so optimistic that when I first met Ashley, I couldn't stand her. I just was like, no one can be this optimistic. Why are you like this? It's pissing me off. And then one day her and I really hung out. And I was like, you know what? I get why you are the way you are now. And that makes me appreciate your spirit. Everybody has a reason for being the way they are. And what I loved most about being friends, you know, with Ashley is sometimes you need that optimism to get through the day. And us pessimists, we may scoff at someone, you know, genuinely being like, you can do it. But maybe, maybe you just need to hear that you can do it and believe it for two seconds to get things done. And I think that the world just doesn't function without optimists. I think most revolutionaries are actually huge optimists. They believe that the world can be a better place. And they're radical about that belief. They believe it's so hard that they make change happen. And so you need those kinds of people or else our world would just fall apart.

I appreciate that characteristic because I do meet optimists and I get jealous for a second. And speaking of jealousy on my behalf, growing up, you attended a black school. And I am jealous about that because I went to historically white institutions. So even for elementary school and everything, everything. I had to learn about slavery from white people. And growing up, you attended Ahali, which for the listeners is Swahili for family. And you learned all school topics through the lens of black history. Sign me up for that. Me and my imaginary children.

Honestly, it was really fantastic. I have friends still from Ahali. And, you know, learning about American history in that way, or even math, our math lessons were always, they incorporated stuff like the hidden figures. We knew about them before the movie because it was like, by the way, there were three black women who actually used math to put people on the moon. And, you know, that was a part of our math lesson. So I just think everyone should have the opportunity to learn with their culture and heritage being at the forefront of their experience. Because I know for a fact it changed my life and made me a more confident, more secure person. I think there's something valuable about learning how slavery and, you know, oppression, all of that in first grade. I don't think there's anything wrong with that because what it did was give me a real anchor. Like, okay, I know what it is. And I thought there was beauty in dealing with the knowledge and the hurt of history in America before I even got out of fifth grade.

I think so, yeah, because I just remember watching movies like Mississippi Burning in fifth grade. And I'd be like, I'm not talking to no white people tomorrow. And it's like, that is traumatic as a kid, you know, and you got to be surrounded. Your Holly teachers were black. Your mother was a teacher. And most of the teachers you portray on Abbott are black. Thank you. I'm guessing that's not a coincidence. So tell us about your choice to highlight black educators on your show.

It's funny. I've been finding out through Abbott that my experience was not the norm. You know, in Philadelphia, it is kind of the norm to have black educators. You're definitely going to have a white, Hispanic, a bunch of other, an array, a diverse array of teachers. But most of my teachers were black. So to me, that was the only thing that made sense. That was the only way to really show this school. And I felt if we didn't get the landscape right, then the humor wouldn't land. If we were trying to create the warmth of this school, the tone of this school, the tone of the humor, but we reversed everything about it, you know, put white students in the mix or majority white teachers, the humor wouldn't even land. We needed it to be accurate in order to pull off what we've done so far. So I really just wanted to mirror what...

I see in Philadelphia so that we could pull off the comedy.

Yeah. And I also love just like small black children giving side eyes to a camera.

You can't replace that. That's another part, too, where we look. I'm in L.A. It's kind of hard to get kids that are African-American children, black children. We have to literally do outreach. We had to do it again this year. You know, one of my makeup artists, she had her pastor make an announcement at her church. Like, hey.

Not a casting call at the pulpit. Literally. So when are you going to start your own Ahali or Chad school? I have a name idea. It's called The Quad. It's the Quinta Universite of Art and Drama. But, you know, that's... Wait a second. Joyelle.

We workshop it. That's really good. You know what's funny? A dream of mine before Abbott, when I was younger in college, one dream of mine was to maybe have an after-school center in Philadelphia. Because, you know, studies show that there's less violence, truancy, theft, everything. You name it. When kids have somewhere to go after school, it's that period between four and six where a lot of trouble starts to be born because kids leave school and then they're just outside. And if their parents are still at work, their parents aren't, you know, technically aware of what they're doing or where they're going. So after-school programs are important for that reason. Now, a lot of schools can't afford to have after-school programs that service every student. But I always dreamed of, like, a center where kids, everybody from the whole city could go there after school. And it'd be free. You don't have to pay. It's just, like, you come here. There's a game room. There's a media room. If you want to learn how to edit and Photoshop, you can do that in this room. You want to take a dance class? There's a dance class over there. You want to do, you know, basketball? Basketball center over there. So I just really always wanted to do that. And one day I hopefully will. But I immediately started looking into that kind of thing because I can't be the first person that's ever thought of this. And, of course, I wasn't. Many other Philadelphians have thought about doing this kind of a thing. But it's kind of hard, you know. You have to deal with the city. You have to deal with the government. And to make something free is honestly harder than people think. You know, people are always like, why don't you just use your money to do this? Trust me, people try. And this country makes it very hard to do next things. I still am looking into ways to do real life, tangible, hard-hitting philanthropy that actually means something. And it seems like the more impact it has, the harder it is to do.

Oh, so you're trying to go to heaven. I get it. You're a good person. Your family grew up watching, you know, 227, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. Yep. And Martin, do you still do your Martin impression, by the way?

I don't still do my Martin impression. Actually, it was just re-watching Martin. It plays on BET, like, all day long. And when I was in New York last, I just watched it all day long. And I was just picking up how much I really, like, you know, how much it seeped into me from that show. Because you kind of forget if you haven't seen your childhood favorites in a long time or your family favorites in a very long time, just how much impact they have on your comedy. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I was just thinking about Martin.

I love that. So, specifically, what did that teach you about comedy?

For one, being able to see, like, Gina and Pam actually be funny Black women, I think was huge for me. I don't think, like, representation didn't seem like a big question of the time when I was younger. There were plenty of, like, Black shows on TV and Black women being incredible on TV. But Gina and Pam were genuinely funny. And I think being willing to, like, poke fun at yourself or being willing to make ugly faces to really go for the joke, I think that never seemed like an issue to me because of watching performances like theirs. And Tommy, never knowing what Tommy's job was. You ain't got no job, Tommy. That was big. I mean, a lot of that, you can see the influence of that in my show with, like, Mr. Johnson. We know what his job is, but we don't know what his life is. And, I mean, just stuff like little quirks like that that I think just resonated with me.

Yeah, I love how Mr. Johnson's becoming, like, an international man of mystery. Yes. As a comedian from the age of the internet, what elements of the format are you choosing to throw out the window when it comes to traditional broadcast sitcoms?

I just want to bring my perspective to the format. So I just... I just think it's about reinventing and bringing what I think is funny or cool or what I consider to be a good story to the format. So, I mean, a perfect example is like even having a predominantly Black show with two white characters being the minority in the cast. That was something that kind of was jarring to people or a flip to people. But I'm like, well, that's just the way this school is made. And or having a character like Tariq, like bringing him to this kind of format. And, you know, Zach Fox, but like having Zach Fox on network television.

Just for context, Zach Fox plays Tariq, Janine's boyfriend, on the show.

You know what I mean? That's insane. That's insane stuff. But I think that when, you know, new creatives come to the traditional space, that's how you get cool cast like that. And I think that was something cool about going back to watching Martin. I was looking at how many guest stars they had on that show. Like they had Biggie on. And I know I get it. You know, everyone's like, oh, very Black TV at the time. But like Martin was watched by everyone. It wasn't just watched by Black people. It was watching white homes. It was watching Hispanic homes. And for them to have like Biggie on the show was pretty crazy at that time.

As a fellow comedian and also activist, I wade through some tough topics in my comedy. I talk about my abortion on stage, which is polarizing to say the very least. You also use your platform to talk about some contentious issues like the school to prison pipeline, which is so important. And the tension between public and charter schools. But we do it in hilarious ways. So can you tell us how you as an artist and comic are able to determine which topics that you want to explore?

In Abbott, it's really we really do come in starting with comedy first. Like what do we think is funny? What do we think can fit in a 22 minute time frame? Because that's all we have. My friend Kate has this saying she hates when people say you're tackling like we're actually never tackling anything. We are not coming in the room going, what thing can we tackle today? We're just talking about our characters. And that's really it. What you're talking about, the school to prison pipeline. That was we were doing our story on new technology in the school. And I mean, that was a joke. I believe it was Jordan Temple who threw that line out there. And it was like, oh, yeah, yep, that sounds perfect. That is perfect for what we're talking about, how technology can be dangerous. And that's kind of how we approach things.

Turns out the software we've been using was invented by the Pennsylvania Penal System to collect data for prisons. Prisons? Something about the correlation between lower reading levels and the amount of prison beds they're supposed to build. Oh, my God. Apparently it's illegal. I am just as disgusted as you all are. Disgraceful.

You're going to sell those, aren't you?

And what would you rather I do, Melissa?

I like that Abbott gives me the opportunity to touch on a lot without trying. But I think that's also just what happens when you're making a show about a mockumentary in particular, about a public school, a Black public school. Those things are just going to start to come out.

Yes. And quick shout out to Jordan Temple, speaking of international men of mystery. For the listeners, that is one of the writers on Abbott Elementary. And he's a fantastic stand-up comedian and one of the most interesting Black people I've ever met in my life. Truly.

Truly. That man, I would say Jordan is like, he is like a secret weapon. Shout out to my writers room real quick. I just, I love them all so much. I know I'm just talking about Jordan right now. But they all just have these special abilities that I think makes our room just incredible. And I love them. All of them have been with us since the first season. Except for one. She came second season. But it feels like she's been there since the beginning. And they're just wonderful.

Oh, I love that. You've mentioned being mentored by Larry Wilmore, a TV veteran who wrote on many a sitcom that we both loved growing up. Tell me about that full circle moment.

You know, it's incredible to have one of your, like, godfathers of what you do. Be your mentor and be your teacher. I mean, Larry took me to school. I didn't go to college for, you know, writing or comedy writing. I wasn't a fucking Harvard lampoon or any of that shit. Like, I just liked comedy. And I did go to Second City. I did study it. I read my books. I did all of that. But when it comes to making television, Larry took me to school. I value the time that I was with him and Jermaine Fowler creating a show for CBS. Because, I mean, that feels like education I couldn't have paid for. That feels like education people only dream about. And that was for...

a pilot that never even got made. You know what I mean? So that's also, it was just a testament to, you know, you have to do these things to learn, right? You know, I know people who get really down, like my pilot didn't get picked up. And it's like, dude, I made three pilots before Abbott and all of them did nothing but prepare me for Abbott. And you have to just be willing to go through those experiences. But I was so fortunate to be able to work with Larry for almost a year. He's lived such a life in comedy. He has been a writer. He's launched shows. He's hosted his own, you know, talk show. And so learning under somebody like that, let alone a Black man, it's like, I don't know. I'm forever grateful. It's just, yeah, I'm forever grateful.

One of my last questions for you is what is the best advice you've received and how did Oprah say

it to you? You know what? It's not that she said it to me specifically, Oprah. I mean, I think it's come out through conversations with her and other people who have been doing this for a long time, who have stood the test of time. Basically that your work is what you do this for. It's not for fame. It's not to be the audience's friend. You know what I mean? Like, that's not why we're here. We do our work and we do it well. And that's why we started doing it because we're good at what we do and we love it. And it's how we share with the world. It's how we give to the world. It's how we contribute to society. That's why I'm here.

Listen, you're doing the work and not you almost making me cry at the end. A single African-American

tear. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. You've always been a fan and I'm just always happy when I see you and just always, always a fan.

Yeah. And I also want to apologize because I think one time I hugged you and one of my door knocker earrings smacked you in your face. No, I think I like that. Okay. Because it was a very black moment. It was very. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. You're the best.

That was the creator and star of Abbott Elementary, Quinta Brunson, in conversation with our correspondent, Joelle Nicole Johnson. When we return, we'll be joined by NPR's TV critic, Eric Deggans, to talk about how Abbott nails authenticity in ways most shows don't, the boom and bust of diverse representation on TV, and why half the cast of Friends probably should have been Dominican. Stick around. We'll be right back. Welcome back to We Disrupt This Broadcast. I am Gabe Gonzalez. And before the break, we heard Joelle Nicole Johnson in conversation with Quinta Brunson, creator and star of the amazing Abbott Elementary. And now I'd like to dig a little deeper into why her work is so groundbreaking and why it's so beloved by audiences. Here to help me unpack that is NPR TV critic and media analyst, Eric Deggans. Eric, I've got to start off by making a confession, which is that I am a longtime fan. My family's from Florida. We grew up in central Florida. So I know you from the Tampa Bay times. I love when you cover comedies, especially comedy specials and sitcoms. So thank you. Well, thank you for having me. That's so nice. I really appreciate that. Absolutely. I'm excited to dive in. Quinta and Joelle spoke a lot about 90s sitcoms, particularly ones like Martin and Fresh Prince. And I'm curious if having, you know, seen those shows in your time as a TV critic up until now, you feel that Quinta and this younger set of new writers are maybe bringing sensibilities from those old 90s sitcoms into Abbott these days.

You know, I'm a little bit older than Quinta. So I was actually covering television when some of these shows were on the air making new episodes. And one of the things I didn't realize was that for people her age, there was a lot of TV shows featuring Black characters. And it was something that critics like me had always been fighting for and always been trying to press the networks into adopting. And so Quinta grew up at a time when various emerging networks had a lot of shows featuring Black characters because they were trying to draw audiences that weren't being served by the mainstream networks. And she was inspired by that. But there was a renaissance period where you had a lot of great shows featuring then up and coming Black talent. And it's so interesting to see that not only the people featured on those shows had their careers sort of begun by being on those programs, but it also inspired people like Quinta to go out and create new hits now that are also a legacy of those shows.

that's just one because they're never watching her liveogue on those shows. So what did you guys expect to hear

And I think that was something that we didn't quite anticipate or know or understand when those shows were on.

in the RCA show?

But you got to feel a little inspired hearing that. You mentioned the 90s was sort of this renaissance of new, young Black talent. And not just Black talent on screen, but like Black writers making headway, Black directors making headway. And then it seemed like we didn't see a lot of that. And now it's like we're on the up again.

Next time we're going to make a quick installation rate.adı.

What do you think accounts for this kind of cycle of representation in Hollywood, if we can call it that?

I think what we're seeing now is fundamentally different than what we saw back then. What we saw back then was a bunch of emerging networks. First, it was Fox that was starting. And then it was the United Paramount Network, UPN. And then it was the WB Network. And in every case, as these new networks were starting, they would put on shows featuring Black cast because they understood that Black people were so still starved for the sight of themselves on television. That if you put on several shows starring people who Black people already loved, like Steve Harvey or Jamie Foxx, then people would flock to those shows because they didn't have much choice. And then once the network was established, it would switch over to more, quote unquote, mainstream programming. And you would see those Black focus shows go away. And then your diversity is gone. What's happening now is that I think networks and streaming services and platforms have realized they need to have a wide base of shows to attract people. And younger viewers especially demand a level of diversity in the environments that their shows take place in. So you can't just have an all-white cast with one Black person in it. You couldn't do a show like Friends Now, a comedy aimed at younger viewers, where all the characters were white. Because younger consumers would look at that and they would say that was insane. New York doesn't look like that. And so I think part of it is that what TV audiences crave now is authenticity. And so that's why, for example, Quinta is able to make Abbott Elementary the way she wants. Because ABC understands that the show has to look and feel authentic to be successful. If it doesn't, then people won't show up. Now TV executives understand that white people can do what Black people have done for decades, which is watch a show about a bunch of people who don't look like them, but who are human just like them. And if those characters are compelling, they'll get drawn into their stories and they'll learn something about an environment that they might not know that much about. You know, white people who might not have known or even thought about what it would be like to teach at an urban school in Philly are learning a lot about how that environment works and who the people are in that corner of the world and how things work. And so they're drawn in by the humanity. They can see themselves in these characters, but they also learn a lot about a culture that they don't know much about. I think it's another reason why Abbott is so successful.

Absolutely. I mean, I think it does that thing that a lot of writers I know are striving for, which is sort of finding the universal and the specific. It's really fascinating. I also can't stop thinking about what you said about friends. I've been living in New York 10 years and from what I've seen, half of the friends should have at least been Puerto Rican, but that's fine. Thank you.

We can discuss that another day. The other half should have been Dominican. Exactly.

I'm curious what you think about the character of Janine, who Quinta has established is very different than her in real life. But what do you think is important about seeing Janine's specific brand of optimism on screen?

I feel like Janine's journey is being super optimistic, but being unrealistic and learning how to be more realistic about her ambitions and about her ideas and about the change she wants to bring to the school district in general and to Abbott Elementary specifically. But there are characters on the show, you know, minor characters who have given up on their dreams. And because they're depicted as these sort of harsh buzzkill kind of people who are mostly there for comic relief, it lets you know that the show itself is about her trying to figure out how to be a dreamer, but be a dreamer in a realistic way, in a way that actually helps people, in a way that actually brings meaningful change. And I think that's the journey of a lot of teachers is that they come in very optimistic and they come in with a head of steam about what they want to try to do. And then they meet this intractable system that is bizarrely bureaucratic, that rewards people who aren't necessarily good at their jobs. And that punishes people who are often good at their jobs, that doesn't pay very much, that asks a lot of you. And through all of that, if you were an energetic person.

person filled with ideas and wonder and ambition, you have to figure out a way to preserve that, but deploy it in a way that's realistic. I mean, the staff here is incredible.

They're all amazing teachers. I really look up to them all. Please, get down! Why? Well, I look up to the older ones. We younger teachers are still getting

the hang of it if we don't end up leaving. It's such a beautiful story, and it's, I feel so lucky that the stars aligned in the perfect way for this project to happen when it did, the way it did, with the amount of control and specificity that Quinta and her team were able to bring to the show. So thanks for sitting down to talk with me about it today. This has been so much fun. Thanks, Eric. Hey, I really enjoyed it too. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you all so much for joining me on We Disrupt This Broadcast. I've got to be honest, I'm already praying that Quinta includes an extension program for adults at whatever future school she opens. I've got to say it was a joy to listen in on Joyelle and Quinta's conversation because as a 90s kid myself, I was also inspired by so many of the sitcoms they touched on. And what a brilliant observation from Eric Deggans to include Abbott Elementary as part of the comedic legacy of those shows as well. Most importantly, I loved how we talked about exposing audiences to people they may not usually come into contact with because for better or worse, TV is often the place where folks see communities outside their own for the first time. You could say this episode really took us to school. Fun fact, the Peabody Awards are decided unanimously. So to close out our episode, I bring you We Disrupt This Broadcast's Unanimous Decision, a segment where we unanimously pick the most disruptive line of the day.

I'm not talking to no white people tomorrow.

Next time on We Disrupt This Broadcast, we've got comedian, writer, actor, and creator Rami Yusuf of the Peabody Award winning series Rami.

Do I really need to learn things the hard way in order to kind of find what I probably knew in the beginning was true? And I think it's a very human sensation to take everything apart and then put it back together again.

We dig into what makes Faith the edgiest topic on TV, and I reveal the moment from Rami that actually made my boyfriend and I scream while watching it, like very loudly. The neighbors texted me afterward to make sure we were okay. Anyway, you don't want to miss it. We Disrupt This Broadcast is a Peabody and Center for Media and Social Impact production, hosted by me, Gabe Gonzalez, with on-air contributions from Katie Borum, Jeffrey Jones, and Joelle Nicole Johnson. This show is brought to you by executive producers Katie Borum, Jeffrey Jones, and Bethany Hall. Producer Jordana Jason, writers Sasha Stewart, Jordana Jason, Bethany Hall, Jennifer Cation Armstrong, and myself, Gabe Gonzalez. Consulting Producer Jennifer Cation Armstrong. Associate Producer Bella Green. Graphic Designer Olivia Klaus. Operations Producer Varsha Ramani. The Marketing and Communications Team Christine Dreher and Tunisia Singleton. From PRX, the team is Terrence Bernardo, Jenny Cataldo, Morgan Church, Edwin Ochoa, and Amber Walker. The Executive Producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzalez.